Pradhyun: Come as you are. This is the wild middle, and today I'm very excited to introduce our newest guest, Debbie. So Debbie works as an inclusion support specialist for those with an IEP on the spectrum. So I've known her for a very, very long time, ever since I was in transition to kindergarten. So she's been—yeah, she guided me a lot in that early period of life and yeah. So yeah, Debbie, why don't you come on here and introduce yourself.
Debbie: Thank you so much. Hello everyone. So as Pradhyun said, I am Debbie Masterson. I actually am retired now from my role with Fremont Unified. And I am very honored to be here and I look forward to the next 40, 45 minutes.
Pradhyun: Yeah. So it's like now that you've retired, you're kind of like a sage of your profession because you're not doing it anymore, but you have all the time to look at what you've experienced from a very detached and probably very novel perspective. So I'm quite excited to get this screened.
Debbie: Great. Thank you.
Pradhyun: So, yeah. So first, we're gonna start with some foundational questions. What does neurodiversity mean to you?
Debbie: Neurodiversity, when I say the word or I talk about the meaning, it really is just kind of a broad idea of everyone. Like we are all, in some ways neurodiverse. None of us are the same. We all think a little differently, wired a little differently. That's what it means to me. Just differences.
Pradhyun: Okay. Hmm. See, I really agree with that sort of thing. Like yeah, I think it is true that probably it is probably like even in diagnosis, I think the categories for certain disorders are also expanding, because like—not because people are getting like more abnormal, I think it's like kind of negatively charged to see that they're becoming more abnormal. I think it's just more that we're noticing differences and we're learning how to accommodate those better. So yeah, I think that's my view on it.
Pradhyun: So how did you begin working with neurodiverse individuals? Like how did you come to that position as an inclusion support specialist?
Debbie: Oh, my, so many years ago I taught preschool. I had a student in my class who was really—had behaviors that were misunderstood and I wanted to understand them. And that student wound up, with my help and the assistance of many others, to really get in a program where he was able to thrive and learn. But it was through him and through some of those behaviors that nobody else understood, and I knew, I always say there's a reason behind a behavior, and so I wanted to get to that meaning. What was he trying to communicate? What were his needs? So I always think about him.
Pradhyun: Oh yeah, so he just sort of got you into it, you know, from wanting to figure out this kid. And I think that's very interesting because like you weren't really planning to like get into it beforehand, but like, you know, now you see this kid, you shifted your approach.
Debbie: Yeah, I found that. Yeah, exactly.
Pradhyun: So yeah, I guess the next question is pretty clear—I think it's pretty obvious that what motivates you is finding answers, but like, how do you develop your answers? How do you cope when it's difficult to understand why a kid is behaving? Do you ever just accept that maybe they're just being overwhelmed or do you always push to find a true meaning or an answer for like every behavior of the kid?
Debbie: That's a good question. I would say there's a point in which I do stop. I don't always need the answer. Sometimes a behavior is just that, it's just a behavior and we need to get through it. Sometimes if it's a more significant behavior or something that's misunderstood, then we do need to find some answers and figure out what the best approach is. But I don't always need to find the answer, because sometimes we just need to accept.
Pradhyun: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fair enough. I think accepting is also another place too, where you can find answers, because like, I think like if you just let answers come to you rather than you trying to find the answers—like, yeah, I think it's a two way process. Like I think interest is something that creates its own seeking. Like if you're interested in something, you're gonna notice patterns, you know, your cognitive resources are gonna be applied to that, even if you're not solving a specific problem. So yeah, I think and of course you need—this is also somewhat human profession, where like you also need to pay attention to the needs of the kids and make sure that you're not just analyzing, but also trying to really help them. So yeah, makes sense.
Pradhyun: Can you describe your work in general? Like what does it entail on a day-to-day basis?
Debbie: So, I actually wore a few different hats. I worked with teams, so I worked with IEP teams, the teacher, the counselor, the support specialist, speech pathologist, behavior support. And we all worked as a team together. But then the part that I really enjoyed through my career was doing whole class lessons. So I would go in and do a SEL lesson, so a social emotional—so all the learners were neurodiverse. And so I would have a student in that class, but the class lesson would be for everyone. And that way everyone learned about empathy. Everyone learned about all the little nuances of being a friend, and in the end, everyone spoke the same language and supported each other.
Pradhyun: I really love that. I really love that actually. This is a topic I've also touched upon in my previous podcast episodes. So often like it's not just a one way process where the neurodivergent person has to like, learn how to integrate with society. They should also make sure that others are also respecting them. So yeah, I think as educators, it's important to create as supportive an environment as possible. You know, neurotypicals are not perfect. There are some who, like, even if they're not autistic people, they can still be very unempathetic. They can have trouble getting people. Everyone just sort of can struggle with that. So I think it makes sense that you're trying to teach those skills to everyone preemptively.
Debbie: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 'Cause everyone, you know, might be a little neurodiverse, so you have to get it out.
Pradhyun: Yeah, I agree. Yeah. How does the—so, yeah, just as a general trend, I really want you to look into your own experience. Like, consider some kids that you were particularly invested in and like, you know, like how maybe you had contact with them over the years. You see how they've grown and developed. So like how would you see the level of support differs over the course of a neurodivergent child's life? From elementary school, middle school, high school? How would you say that changes?
Debbie: Well, sadly, I think it diminishes as they get older. There's not enough support. As these young people go through school, the support gets less and less through middle school, through high school. I'm a true believer in early intervention. I think we can start in preschool and go from there, because that really is, if you have—if you start with that foundation, that social emotional foundation, everything else will come. So if we can really hone in on social, emotional health and wellbeing, all the little nuances—not just, you know, peer relationships, but how do you communicate with your teacher? What if you had a bad day? How does that, you know, what does that look like when you go home? How can your parents support with school, with the academics? Right. So, but I think it changes immensely. I think there's a lot of one-on-one intervention early on. And then it goes more to a group, and then it just—in high school intervention really is working with the teachers, possibly the family, depending on how much the family wants more support for their child.
Pradhyun: I see. Yeah.
Debbie: But I always think of the big picture. So I am retired, but I am not—I'm still passionate about what I do, so I'm actually doing a little side thing where I just wanna see people achieve. And I think about, well, once you get outta high school, how do you interview? What do you do when you go to college? How do you make these friendships? How do you hold onto the friendships?
Pradhyun: Oh, so it's just like previous people you've already talked to as kids or could it be like anyone?
Debbie: It could be anyone. So I invite anyone to come and work with me because I think life is a process and I think socially, emotionally, there's so much to learn. And I don't think there's just a particular age where it stops. You're like, okay, you're done. It's on a continuum.
Pradhyun: So yeah, on that process of learning, I think in my opinion, yeah, I think you're very right to mention that. Social and emotional learning is like pretty important for good stuff because I think like that's sort of an intelligence that is not only valuable in and of itself, it's also something that leads to more and more connections. Like, if you can talk to people, you can get what you need. Like, let's say if you need like a therapist and like you have to communicate with them as an adult, for example. Or like you need to talk to a social worker, you need to talk to someone else—maybe someone on the campus needs to give you some stuff like that. You know, it's just nice to be able to talk to people and get what you need from them. So yeah, I think that's very important.
Pradhyun: But I would say another thing that I don't think it's touched upon enough—what I've observed in these early programs is the ability to self-regulate. Some of this is like emotional regulation. Like often you'll see a lot of kids—like, for example, my cousin for example—yeah, he has had some problems with like meltdowns and such. So it's like, I think it's very unclear how to like help in that situation. Because they're like so overwhelming, like so and so potentially rare, that you don't quite know how to deal with them. But I think it's important that you should know how to deal with them because like you need to know what the triggers are. You need to know what that is. And ultimately the neurodivergent person needs to know how to self-regulate more than anything. And also, not only that, I think executive functioning—it's like you need to make sure that they're organized, that they have schedules, that they're on track and yeah, I think building accountability and stuff like that is super important because like I think for me, I'm just sort of, I'm very unorganized.
Debbie: Yeah, I guess like with the social aspect, it can be tricky and I think if that frontal lobe is having challenges and you have executive functioning challenges, that in itself could cause a meltdown. And some people have quiet meltdowns, some are bigger. The other thing I did for Fremont was I was a crisis trainer, so I trained the entire—whoever would come to our training, CPI training—how to deescalate situations. Understand, again, looking at the meltdown as what are they trying to communicate?
Pradhyun: Interesting. Very interesting.
Debbie: And then what our approach should match, right? What's happening? And so if a person is escalated, you don't wanna come in escalated. You wanna have a very calm demeanor. You want to try and make sure everyone is safe first and foremost, but then you wanna have some empathy. Maybe give that person time to have their meltdown. They may just need it. So that really comes into educating others on maybe things they see or hear and make it the norm instead of, you know, the weird, like, why are they doing that? I call it purple thoughts. Sometimes people might look at somebody and it's just because of their own, how would I say, ignorance of the situation. They just need to be educated on what's happening. And so I think the more we have these talks and put it out there, the more accepting everyone will be. And that's really ultimately what we want.
Pradhyun: Yeah, I agree on that. Yeah. I think for like executive functioning skills specifically, yeah, I don't think those scale as much as social and emotional interactions because like, yeah, I think the same core of what's taught for social and emotional relationships, I think like that core doesn't really change that much. It's like you can ultimately—ultimately you're the one who's choosing to have social relationships or friendships. So you can have like say a few friends. You could have many friends. You could limit interactions to only necessary interactions. So it's very up to you and how you wanna do that. So yeah, I mean like, you have a need for social interaction, but those needs are different and you know, you should, it should be around that you shouldn't be forcing yourself to do more than you want to socially. Like with executive functioning, though, I think it's like even more encompassing because it's not only about dealing with the obligations of school and stuff, it's also about like, how about your own projects, about your own interests, how you explore those. So I think it's important to develop that because executive functioning feels like they just sort of scale exponentially. It's like, you know, I think it's like if you—particularly if you don't get that early training support, it's like you're sort of left behind.
Debbie: I think executive functioning is a word a lot of people throw out there, but really to work on your executive functioning, it needs to be broken down into little bits and pieces.
Pradhyun: Oh yeah.
Debbie: And you need to, you as the person, need to work on just one thing and really try and master it, and then you move on to the next. So it's kind of like a scaffold on a building where there's layers, right? So you start with the base layer and then you move up and you move up.
Pradhyun: Yeah. I think there's a book called Smart and Scattered which is about that theme. It divides executive functioning, these skills, like emotional regulation divides it into task orientedness, like starting being good at starting a task versus being good at resistance. So yeah, I agree. Those are quite different domains.
Debbie: And it's—some people look at things and, oh, well you can do that, or that's easy. And I always tell people, well say it's easy for me 'cause what's easy for you may not be easy for me. Again, we're all different, right?
Pradhyun: Yeah, that's true.
Debbie: But I think understanding if you have executive functioning challenges, you have to be patient with yourself, but also persistent and really, again, break it down and ask yourself, well, where am I going to start? And sometimes you might need help with that because just that thought in itself could be overwhelming. Right.
Pradhyun: Yeah. So yeah, I guess that sort of ties into the name of this very podcast actually. It's the wild middle. So it's like, well, I interpret its primary meaning is that it's a sort of a wild period of transition between high school and college, you know, that experience of being an adolescent. I realized that also as secondary meanings of say, being caught in emotional turbulence, being caught in all these demands and stuff, which is—yeah. So that's like another meaning of it. So like yeah, how would you interpret it personally? That sort of meaning.
Debbie: Well, that's interesting because the second half of that, that's kind of what I was thinking. The wild middle when I heard it just makes me think of like just going from adolescence to young adulthood to adulthood, right. And all the nuances that come with it. And trying to navigate through the thing we call life and really achieving your goals. So yeah, it's kind of the wild middle. Like, what am I, where do I start? What do I do next? How do I do it?
Pradhyun: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think the wild middle can also come from like outside forces if there's like a lot of turbulence in your life. That's also another form of the wild middle really. It's just like, I've seen the chaos of the universe and I've given it a name in the podcast. So yeah, we're basically just channeling collective currents here.
Debbie: Yeah.
Pradhyun: So, yeah. And I guess one source of a lot of emotional strife, not only but especially for neurodivergent people, is bullying. So yeah, I think it can affect all sorts of people and it's like different at each age level too. So like, yeah. What are the common patterns you notice in relation to neurodivergence and bullying happening at schools? Like how is it different for different age groups? How is it expressed? Why do people feel like they want to bully the neurodivergent person? And like, what are some strategies that you think are helpful in this instance?
Debbie: Well, I think people that bully—they themselves have something in their life that they're missing. So they, I have some empathy for them because something either happened with them, maybe they were bullied or something is not whole with them. So they feel the need to move forward and bully someone else because they think it's going to help them and make them feel good when in fact, it'll eventually not make them feel good. And I can speak firsthand on this. I've done an activity called Cross the Line, and I do this with—I've done it with elementary and middle school. And when I ask students, have you ever bullied? And they cross that line, and then we talk about like, how did it make you feel? Nobody ever said, oh, I felt great to be a bully. Not in my experience. So I think bullies, there's an underlying reason there.
Debbie: I think in elementary school, bullying looks a little different. It's more blatant. Somebody might push somebody down or hide their lunchbox or take something from them thinking there won't be a repercussion. But as you get older, bullying starts to look different. Almost unsafe. So in middle and high school, I've seen bullying where somebody who maybe doesn't read the room right, understand the situation at hand, what's happening—they might be asked to do something that's either unkind, unsafe, and they go ahead and do it. And so that's to me—and then there's cyber bullying. You see that really starts around fifth grade, sadly. And goes—and that could be anything. It's really just taking somebody and saying really mean things or making up a story and it's all over the internet. Right. So that's cyber bullying.
Debbie: Then you don't hear about this often, but I'm gonna say it. I've seen teachers bully students.
Pradhyun: Yeah.
Debbie: Not physically, but mentally. So, and it's been some of my students where maybe they have a slower processing time, right? So if a teacher asks that student to do something and they don't do it within that second, they keep on and on. Why didn't you get that? And then they go over to their desk and they're banging on their desk. Why aren't you doing that? Well, give them a moment to process what you just asked them to do. And that's part of what I used to do. Right? I'd go in and try and work with the teacher and help them understand. And a lot of times it wasn't just my student, it was a few other students in the class. We all process differently.
Pradhyun: Mm. That makes sense.
Debbie: I've had some teachers actually thank me for bringing that to their attention without actually coming out and saying, hey, you know, but just kind of modeling it and saying, oh, you know, let's give them a few minutes and then come back. Most of the time students did what was asked or they needed a break, but let's understand what's happening. So yeah, that's my take on bullying.
Debbie: I'm a huge believer in self-advocacy, so I always try and work with people and help them learn what that means. How can you self-advocate for yourself in physical situations, in just different situations, what that looks like and sounds like. And that comes back to like body language, facial expression, really being self-aware is really important to help diminish the bullying.
Pradhyun: Oh yeah, totally. Yeah. Well on bullying, I think like sometimes bullying is not—like I do agree, it can come from a background that's sort of abusive to them. I think also sometimes kids are just, sometimes kids are just a little sadistic.
Debbie: Yeah, that's true.
Pradhyun: Yeah. And yeah, I think with what you mentioned about bullying getting more conversational in nature as opposed to like physical. I think that's—there's also a bit of a gender difference there. Like I would say the boys in my school are still very much physical—like it's not physical bullying, but they are gonna be very open physically, but like with the girls, it's more mental, more conversational. So I think that's even harder for like autistic girls or like anyone who has like a pragmatic language disorder that makes them worse or less equipped to understand socializing. Yeah, I think it can be much harder to cope with that sort of bullying.
Debbie: Yeah. Because they don't even often—they might not even know what's happening. It's like, how do you defend against something you don't even know.
Pradhyun: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And well, you know, it's sometimes a good thing, you know, like if you don't even recognize bullying and you're just living your life and then these bullies are just like seething and they can't quite get to you, you know? I think that's fine too. I was like that personally.
Debbie: That's true. I mean, as long as it doesn't harm you, that's my concern.
Pradhyun: Yeah. Fair enough.
Pradhyun: So yeah, I guess another question—what strengths—this also ties into your program—what are the strengths of neurodivergent individuals that you notice that you think are especially helpful for them going into college? Stuff like that. What do you think those are?
Debbie: The first thing I think of is detail oriented. I think that is a great attribute and it will get you through college and I would say 99% of students that I've worked with that are neurodiverse, are very detail oriented. Sometimes it works against you a little bit because you want it to be just right. So it's a fine line. But, you know, paying attention to details, being honest. I think honesty is important, academically, socially. So that too is something that will help you get through college. And I think sometimes there's something you're really good at, so if you make it work for you, so maybe you're really good at math and science, and so everything you do in college encompasses that, and that's okay as long as it's, you know, even in speech class, maybe you want to get up and give a speech on the science of something. So making that work for you. So I think the special interest too can really work for a neurodivergent individual.
Pradhyun: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree with the strength-based model. Yeah. I think this is a question that everyone answers a little differently because it's a stupidly vague question to ask, like, what are the general strengths of neurodiverse individuals? Because the whole point is that they're diverse. It's in the name. So yeah, I was just asking this to sort of get, like, what's your perspective on this? And yeah, I agree that, yeah, I think detail orientation, you know, just really just having an intense interest in something. Being able to come up and talk and see, talk about their interests is something that I really can do a lot. And I think that's what gets me very far in life. See, I think what comes with neurodivergency is like the inherent ability to individuate more, you know, find what works for you because if you're a little different yourself, well, yeah. You know, it's like your difference—why try to be normal? Just be different.
Debbie: Well, what is normal?
Pradhyun: Yeah. What is normal? Who defines normal? Right. That's a whole other show.
Debbie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Pradhyun: Normal is just a mean that we make in our life often. Normal is your normal. Normal is an ideal or something. Yeah. A platonic construct.
Debbie: Well said.
Pradhyun: So, yeah. So yeah, I guess like the last question would be about—you'll have to make this quick also—what are some concrete and both abstract advice that you would offer to neurodivergent individuals and to high schools in general about academics and extracurriculars? And if you were to give neurodivergent people advice that they can carry throughout the rest of their life, what would that be?
Debbie: Well, I think really for high schoolers, think about how you wanna be remembered. So let's say 10 years from now, you are sitting, you know, you just finished college, you're sitting in an interview and the person comes in and it's someone you went to high school with. How do you wanna be remembered? Right? And then strive for that and know it doesn't happen right away. Strive for that. Make that one of your goals. Do you wanna be remembered as smart, funny, that guy you could always count on, right? Because those are all attributes that people look for in an employee. And ultimately we wanna be happy and are social, you know, maybe have a partner, but also our work life. So think about how you wanna be remembered and thinking—also, life's a process. Allow yourself to continually learn and to apply what you've learned. Be patient with yourself, right? And take the time to understand others and understand yourself.
Debbie: Yes. Academics. I think you need to be your own—you will have to advocate for yourself in college. Learn how to write a really great email to a professor. Practice that and make sure that your email, when someone else reads it, have someone else read it and make sure that it reads the way you were thinking. 'Cause sometimes we'll write something, it's not quite what we were thinking. That's not what we really wanted to say. So practice communicating with professors. Think about what it's gonna look like when you start college. Maybe you walk in that dorm room, how will you say hi? Know that you are going to be nervous just as everybody else is that first time in college and, you know, it's—we're all human. And it's an exciting time. You're going into a really exciting time in your life. I tell everyone high school is just a hurdle once you make it over.
Pradhyun: Yeah. Yeah. I agree.
Debbie: It's a lot smoother. Yeah. But advocate for yourself, especially with academics. Not all colleges are really—how would I say? They don't really understand everyone. They have just one way and help them understand that there's more than one way.
Pradhyun: So yeah, Debbie, that was like very heartfelt and like I could really feel your experience, all of that was like coursing through what you were saying. I think so. It's like even though you're retired, I think the experience still continues to live through you. So you can, you know, you can have all those years like watching the development, you know, it's like a continuous process and you get to see it reflect, see what's reflecting in your mind out in the world, which, you know, I find so cool.
Pradhyun: Yeah, I'd say for me personally, I also put an emphasis on the idea of the future. Because you might not like the people at your high school. You might not think, or you might not like yourself at a particular age either. So like, it's okay to change and I think with how much things are changing, I think it's important to have your own ideal of where you want to go, what sort of life you wanna have, and what friendships you want to cultivate according to your own needs, because you shouldn't be afraid to assert your own needs because those are really the ultimate. Ultimately, life should only—life should be about you primarily and what makes you fulfilled. So you should accelerate to the future that makes you feel the most empowered and make—and that where you can find the most interesting, most and the most loving, most supporting people. So yeah. So yeah, that's just sort of my perspective on things, which is not necessarily distinct, but it is just a different emphasis.
Debbie: I would agree with that though. That sounds like a good plan. I wish you the best. Thank you so much for allowing me on your show.
Pradhyun: Yeah. I have to say, I just want to end with, I've learned so much through my years from all my students. You included. I use you as an example without your name, of course, of the abilities people have at such a young age. Your ability—that's true—was to say the alphabet backwards and to form words from just grabbing letters in your classroom and forming words, and you were so excited about it. So stick with what you're excited, what makes you feel happy, and I hope the best for you, and please keep in touch.
Pradhyun: Yeah, makes sense. Yeah. Let's see. Yeah, I guess, yeah, that's very—thank you so much, Debbie, for being here too. And yeah, I guess this concludes our session. So yeah. Bye everyone.
Debbie: Bye. See you soon. Stay tuned.
[← Back to Episodes]